Australia Day: If not Jan 26, then when?

January 26 is a date that continues to divide Australia. For some it is “Australia Day”. For many First Peoples, it is Invasion Day, Survival Day, or a Day of Mourning.

In this episode of Community Conversations, host Sarah Sherry (Clothing The Gaps) is joined by Laura Thompson (Gunditjmara woman, CEO and co-founder of Clothing The Gaps) and Phil Jenkin (OAM, barrister and community activist, co-convener of the Australia Long Weekend idea) to unpack why January 26 is not a date to celebrate, how community pressure is shifting public perception, and a new proposal that aims to create a more inclusive national moment.

Together they explore symbolism and policy, cultural safety, truth-telling, and a practical alternative: an Australia Long Weekend set on the second last Monday in January, designed to keep a summer long weekend while quarantining January 26 as a day for mourning and reflection.

Key takeaways

• January 26 carries deep hurt for First Nations people, and the day often brings heightened racism and division.
  
  
• Symbolism matters: changing an administrative date can be a meaningful first step toward larger justice and truth-telling.
  
  
• The Australia Long Weekend proposal aims to keep a summer celebration without anchoring it to colonisation.
  
  
• Momentum is growing because the issue now impacts many Australians, including new citizens who feel uncomfortable with January 26 ceremonies.
  
  
• Change requires respectful dialogue, accuracy, and shared responsibility from community, media, business, and government.
  
  
• Links and resources:
  • Sign petition
    
    
  • Australia Long Weekend website 
    
    
  • Clothing The Gaps Not A Date To Celebrate campaign
    
    
  • Learn more about January 26 and its history 

Chapters

• 0:00 Why January 26 Hurts
• 0:35 Hosts, Country, And Purpose
• 1:33 What The Day Means To Community
• 4:20 A Non‑Indigenous Awakening
• 7:35 From Slogan To Petition
• 10:35 Enter The Long Weekend Idea
• 12:28 How The Date Would Work
• 15:34 Does Changing The Date Matter
• 18:55 Vision For An Inclusive Long Weekend
• 21:18 Safer Futures And Shared Identity
• 24:15 What Government And Allies Can Do
• 26:10 Final Appeals And Hope

Transcript

Laura: 0:00

If we can't listen to First Nations people's voices who've been marching the streets, then how can we make more meaningful change?

Phil: 0:10

We've got to make up our minds whether we're going to be lassered by history to a date that is clearly not appropriate anymore.

Laura: 0:19

It also provided an opportunity, I thought, for a three-day conversation, a festival where First Nations people were part of it.

Phil: 0:28

You can't celebrate on a day, frankly, of pain and hurt to others.

Sarah: 0:35

Welcome to Community Conversations. I'm Sarah Sherry, co-founder and deputy CEO at Clean the Gats. Today we are recording on the lands of the Kuan Nations. And it's so important in this conversation about advocacy and change to acknowledge the elders who have forged this path of resistance for generations before us. This work really is built on the shoulders of giants. As a non-Indigenous woman, I'm really grateful to be part of this particular conversation because we're talking about a date that continues to divide our nation, January 26. For some, it's called Australia Day. For many First Peoples, however, it's known as Invasion Day, Survival Day, or a day of mourning. And in this episode, we're unpacking why January 26th is not a date to celebrate and exploring the question that we get asked constantly in this campaign. But if not January 26, then when? So we're diving into this in conversation with two incredible people. Laura Thompson, who is a Gordin Jama woman and CEO and co-founder of Clothing the Gaps. Now, Laws, you've had your fair share of advocacy experience over your lifetime, but especially in leading the Free the Flag campaign, which was successful in changing two out of the three licensing agreements over the Aboriginal flag to see the flag back in the public domain. Now you've hosted a community conversations ebb, but I'm stoked to have you as a guest today. Welcome, Laws.

Speaker 1: 2:00

Thank you.

Sarah: 2:01

And Phil, Phil Jenkin. Now, Phil is the co-convener and supporter of the Australia Long Weekend idea. And Phil has over 30 years of experience under his belt as a barrister in Sydney, specializing in common law. Now, Phil, you describe yourself as a community activist and you've played key roles in your local community in resisting council amalgamations, preserving heritage sites, and protecting headlands, which saw you receive your OAM recognition. Congratulations, Phil. And thank you both for being here. I'm really looking forward to discussing this today. So to start us off when we think about January 26th, I'd really love to understand where the two of you are coming from in this idea. So Laws, what has your experience of January 26th looked like over your lifetime?

Laura: 2:49

It's a question that I haven't really reflected on before before because it, you know, in some ways it always has been a day that we've protested and marched on the street. So my only memory of, you know, Australia Day, which is not what we what we call Jan 26, it was invasion day, um, was going to rallies and listening to music at the Survival Day concert. Um, it really was a day that we got out on the streets, you know, wore our um Aboriginal clothing with pride. And I was with community, I was with family, I was with other Aboriginal people who all felt the same way about the day. So it was a day that brought Aboriginal people together in unity. And we made a statement that, you know, this this isn't a day to celebrate, but we also come together and celebrated our survival.

Sarah: 3:45

And it sounds like you've been celebrating that resistance for as long as you can remember, really.

Laura: 3:50

Pretty much. And then my kids come on that journey as well as toddlers, and it was always so hot. Like January 6th is so hot, they'd be like, you know, we're walking down, you know, Burke Street, sweating and you know, dying around, and we could be anywhere else, but we always chose to uh make a stand on that day and you know, let the community know that you know we're here and um it's not okay that we're celebrating on this day.

Sarah: 4:15

And Phil, what about you? What's what's been your relationship with Jan 26 over your lifetime?

Phil: 4:20

Well, it's really interesting what you say because you're speaking as an Indigenous person. And my background is British descent. And I wasn't taught, we weren't taught history, Australian history in any real proper way uh at school. Um, you know, a few explorers discovering everything in this new land. What a load of nonsense that is. And so um it wasn't until I kind of even after I studied history at university, um, that Henry Reynolds in reading books did I find out what had really happened in the early part and continuing all the way through. And I have to say I was shaken by that because that was a deliberate act, as I found out, to kind of whitewash literally that part of our history. And I I therefore became very conflicted. I continued to celebrate uh the good things of this country, and there are many, but always unhappy, the more I found out about history. That's why history is so important, accurate, honest, detailed history is essential. Without that, you're nowhere.

Sarah: 5:42

Phil, may I be so bold in asking? How can you?

Speaker 1: 5:44

Can you be bold? I'm here to be bold, I'm I'm here to enjoy myself.

Sarah: 5:48

Phil, how old were you when you went to your first um invasion day or survival day rally?

Phil: 5:55

I reached a stage about five years ago where I couldn't celebrate my country, which I desperately wanted to do. But I can't do it on that date. And I think people out there who might think this is changing uh, you know, getting rid of Australia, it's not. It's making Australia Day better because it's going to be all inclusive. But getting back to your question Which you've very eloquently dodged so far. No, I'm not dodging it at all. About five years ago I started marching. Yep. Because the only thing I could do, being true to myself and my beliefs, was to support the Aboriginal people and the Tall Australia Islanders people.

Laura: 6:36

It's really incredible that I get to share this space with you because back in the day when I went to the marches, there weren't really any non-Indigenous people there. There was just Aboriginal people there. And then to hear from you, Phil, in you know, in your 80s that you've made a decision to start marching alongside First Nation people, that's incredible. And it does show this shift. It does show that more and more Australians are starting to realize this, the true history of this country, and they're taking a stand with us as well. Absolutely.

Phil: 7:03

Well, it's a passion. I mean, the passion always was, always will be being chanted by thousands of people marching. Very, very powerful. And the genuineness of it, the hurt that you feel, you know, no one can celebrate if you walked on a mars like that and you're non-indigenous, can't feel the impact of it.

Sarah: 7:25

So I think that's one of the things that I've been also really keen to have this conversation about today is that we have two very different people coming at this idea from two very different experiences. And I think it's really important that we start at the beginning of how on earth we are sitting at this table today. How did this conversation begin? What happened here? How did we get here? Um Yeah, how did we get here?

Speaker 1: 7:46

I want to know.

Laura: 7:48

So we've been, um, as we mentioned before, you know, um, Jan, you know, Australia Day is something I've never celebrated, and nor has my family or community. So when we started making t-shirts at Clothing the Gaps, um, one of the first messages we put on a t-shirt was not a date to celebrate, and that was five years ago. And every, you know, pretty much at the first of every new year, we go into every new year, um, unfortunately, talking about um, you know, uh massacres and dispossession and doing like lots of truth telling with a not a date to celebrate message on it on our on our chest. And we've been selling these teas um to, you know, mob and to non-Indigenous people who also want to go out in the world and spark these conversations with their friends in their circles to let those people, those loved ones around them, know where they stand on this issue. We decided to start a petition last year, uh, one year post the referendum, building on the goodwill of Australians who voted yes. And we got to around 70,000 supporters so quickly. You know, we have an incredible community of supporters at Clothing the Gaps. But one of the questions that we kept getting, especially by media, was great, you've got support for this idea, but what's the alternative? And it was something that we didn't feel like we had the answer to. We had been campaigning that, look, what we do know is that Jan 26th isn't a date to celebrate. And perhaps, you know, the the government of the day, Albanese, should consult further with the community and figure that out themselves. But that wasn't landing with the media, it wasn't landing with the campaigner very much at a standstill. And then we got an email from Phil. Ding ding! I was like, who's this random guy emailing?

Speaker 1: 9:40

This oh, what style mile?

Laura: 9:43

I didn't know that at the time though. Um, I didn't know that. But the idea was sound, and Sarah and I both looked at it and thought, oh, long weekend in January. Look, it's still in January, doesn't feel too different. It wasn't linked to another date, it wasn't linked to another colonial date. It felt like it was worth exploring the idea. So we jumped on a phone call from Phil, in which we've had very a lot more since then. Um, and we've also spent quite a bit of time flirting this idea with other um Aboriginal people. And basically anyone who's hanging out with me for more than five minutes, I'm like, do you mind if I run this idea past you? Um very much in conversation around, you know, if not Jan 26 when? And um I was I was drawn to this idea uh and of and of sharing it with others.

Sarah: 10:32

And Phil, why did you send us that email? Why was reaching out to Clouding the Gaps important to you?

Phil: 10:37

Well, it's really important because we had uh put out this proposal in July. There'd been an article, we had an opinion piece in the Herald and the Age, and it goes elsewhere. It was this idea of having a long weekend, three days, always. It's not the present position, we'll come into that later, I think. But it was to have a long weekend um at the best time, you know, to celebrate our nation, basically. Best time in January. And we did a lot of thought on that, as you know. We we looked at 30 years of calendars to see how it all fitted in. So I sent out a number of emails to, but I found it very hard to know which person to send it to. But I went on to yourchange.org.

Laura: 11:29

Oh petition.

Phil: 11:31

Petition. And it was so good that I then looked up and saw who had done the petition. And there was, you know, uh He's clothing the Gaps, please. Clothing the Gaps. So I clicked on Clothing the Gaps and got onto one of the best websites I've ever seen, frankly. And there you were doing all the things that I'd been thinking about of working together with people, working with Aboriginal people and with multicultural society, working with everybody. You were doing it. You know, you're from Western uh Western Victoria, country town background, working with somebody who's in a leading member of the community, uh the Aboriginal community, um, in various fantastic campaigns, like the flag one, Aboriginal Flag, and you're working on things that give such a great message: t-shirts and other apparel and and you know, pins and whatever. Pins. Where is it? Anyway, it's there somewhere. And you know, it's such an incredible, an incredible thing. And when I went onto that website and saw what you were doing, I thought, wow, aren't they good? I should make I should reach out.

Sarah: 12:49

And I'm so glad you did, Phil. And Laws, Phil is wearing one of our Notted Day to Celebrate pins today, and you're wearing the T. The campaign's been one of the earlier conversations that we've been having at Cloak and the Gaps, as you mentioned before. Perhaps you could just give us a bit of a summary about the campaign and where we're up to.

Laura: 13:06

Like I said, the petition's been going for a year now. We're at about 74,000 supporters. We're aiming for 100,000 by Jan 26, 2026. But this work is a legacy piece. Sarah touched on it before. We might not be able to agree on an alternative date that we can celebrate Australia on. But I think we can agree as Australians that Jan 26, a date that's been declared, you know, um, by, you know, our elder William Cooper, as a day of mourning back in 1938, you know, it's over 80 years. It feels disrespectful that of all the days, we choose a day of mourning for First Nations people to be the date that we choose to celebrate Australia on. The campaign, Not a Date to Celebrate, is really about that. It's about choosing to rethink your actions on Jan 26, um, to be respectful of First Nations people and understand the truth of this country. The campaign up until this point really hasn't offered or spoke about an alternative. Um, it's really just getting people, and lots of people are there on this journey of just not celebrating on Jan 26. And we're seeing more and more Australians, and this is actually a shame, but they're choosing not to acknowledge it as a public holiday at all. Everyone's a little bit awkward around this date now. They might not be celebrating, they might be going to work, they're treating it as business as usual. And I think for the government, um, you know, whilst they've shown no commitment at all, which surprises me, or no urgency to change the date at all, I think there's growing community pressure. I feel it. You know, the fact Phil's going to rallies now and he never has before, and probably a lot more people that that you know are turning up and going, no, this we we can't be celebrating this country on this day. And we want to find an alternative that we can do that on is a question that I think the government has to grapple with sooner rather than later.

Sarah: 15:08

One of the things that blows my mind is that it's actually been eight years since the Triple J Hottest 100 countdown was on, was on January 26th. And there was about two years of consultation that happened prior to that. So for a good 10 years in social society, it's been very clear, um, obviously a lot longer within First Nations community, as Lil said, from 1938. It's been declared a day of mourning. But this shift in public perception really, really has grown and is becoming more and more widespread. And Phil, reflecting on what you spoke to before about your own learning journey that you've been on, what's one thing that you wish more Australians understood about January 26?

Phil: 15:48

Well, I think um for people who are non-Indigenous, uh 26 is is not was appropriate when it was kind of fought by the people in the colony. It was really a kind of prison camp, I suppose. They had a celebration of Foundation Day. Because to them, they'd discovered a new country, hadn't they? There's kind of a few people running around but who were there, but but they they were the discoverers. We have discovered a new land. And and so the foundation of British colony in Australia was something to be celebrated from their perspective. And so it was Foundation Day. But even then, it kind of didn't really get a lot of yeah. There's no country in the world, I think, as you've said before, I think maybe on your website, but there's no country in the world that celebrates as it's National Day the day of the start of colonization. There's quite a few who, when they break away from it, but no one puts their hand up and says, you know, oh, we we want to celebrate uh when we took a place over, you know, from other people and pushed them away and they didn't obey our laws, which they have to obey now, we kill 'em. And so, I mean, it's it's it's it's part of our history. But we're now, you know, in 2025, about in 2026, and we've got to make up our minds whether we're gonna be lassoed by history to a date that is clearly not appropriate anymore. But the concept of celebration and reflection, respectfully done, is what we want to do, and we can't do it on that date.

Sarah: 17:44

Let's talk about the Australia Long Weekend idea, the idea that brought us to this table, essentially. Laura, before Phil takes us through the details, when you first heard about this idea when Phil discovered us on change.org and popped through that email, what was your initial reaction?

Laura: 18:02

I thought it was a potentially a good alternative, especially because it wasn't linked to a date. I think there were so many other dates presented, like May 8th, May Federation Day that just didn't make sense because we already have New Year's Day. And unfortunately, some of those dates that were significant for First Nations people, whether it was around the refer referendum that gave Aboriginal people the vote or, you know, when we had the apology, they just didn't feel, especially with the outcome, the no outcome of the referendum, that there was any chance or hope that we're going to get a date that was uh meaningful for the First Nations community. So this idea that it wasn't a date, it was just a rolling long weekend in January, sort of ruled out that um debate that would have to have when we had to get so many people to agree on the meaning behind the date. It's just a day, it's just a long weekend in January. So that felt like it was uh, you know, an alternative that wasn't gonna disrupt or um cause a whole lot of debate. It also provided an opportunity, I thought, for a three-day conversation, a festival where First Nations people were part of it, truth telling was part of it. You know, it wasn't just a celebration, but it was an opportunity to reflect, to make it a day that, yeah, was a weekend, a three-day event that was inclusive, absolutely, of First Nations people, because so it should be, because our history just didn't start 200 years ago. So yeah, that was what what drew it to me. And uh and the and the flip side of that was um by moving the date of Australia Day, um, was that we were able to quarantine in many ways Jan 26 as a day of mourning. And Increase this cultural safety for First Nations people. So on Jan 26th, it can be that a day of mourning where we don't have a barbecue or people sell also celebrating colonisation on that date. I yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Sarah: 20:13

I think the the possibilities of it being um taken up by a really large number of people, it was very attractive. So, Phil, when we talk about the Australia Long Weekend idea, what actually is it? When would it be? Tell us the details.

Phil: 20:30

Well, can I just get back before I do that? Yeah. To um to an issue about change. And it's whether it's government policy or our life or our values or anything else. And it's the same with changing the date of Australia Day. To us, this at this table where we are, it makes no sense for the 26 for the reasons we've said. But for other people, um, without that knowledge and without that background, they, you know, it's but it's a date that's there. You know, it it's been there in actual facts specifically only since 1994. Um, but but um but back in in 1946 or 47, the states, New South Wales certainly, but other states somewhat reluctantly, but agreed on the 26th of January, but celebrated it on the next nearest Monday if it fell during the week. So that's we we had this long holiday in January, and then it fixated on one day, which was a bad mistake, but it fixated on one day all the time. Um but you don't change things and you shouldn't change things, and I believe this strongly, and government policies, unless there is a very good alternative of merit that can garner wide support in a democracy, can garner wide support, capable of having wide support. And so we set ourselves, that's James Woods and myself, a high bar. When is the best time to celebrate and reflect? Not just celebration, and reflect. What is the best time of the year? And we could debate it. I like go skiing, or you know, it should be in winter time, it should be in summer. But cutting down after a long discussion, the consensus was the best time is our long summer holiday break where you can be with family and friends. I got out a calendar personally and spent hours just going through the calendar, seeing what would happen if it was the third long weekend.

Sarah: 22:46

So the third Monday in January.

Phil: 22:48

Third Monday in January. And see what can happens there, and I won't rabbit on too much about it because I could, but what happens if it's the third Monday is that it means that because of the calendar, that will uh come between the 15th and the 21st of January.

Sarah: 23:11

Which feels quite early in January, doesn't it?

Phil: 23:13

Well, it does, but when it's on the 15th, remember it's a Monday. So the long weekend would then be 13, 14, 15. And though you think third, you know, oh, the third long weekend, you're thinking in your mind two-thirds of the way through the month, but you're not because of the way the calendar starts. And so then we looked at the second last long weekend, which means that it will the last time in the calendar it varies to is the 31st. Bang, 31st. So it goes back, then the second last Monday goes back to the 24th. And that's the last it can ever be. It can't go beyond that. So that's the last. Yeah. And then it swings between over a five or six year period, changing one day, sometimes jumping to the 18th. And the sweet spot, the median part of 18 to 24 is 21. Three weeks. Three weeks is the mean spot.

Sarah: 24:17

Because you're right, the 13th of January feels like for most of us, you've only really just gotten back into the swing of going back to work. My alarms finally started going off at the right time, and then you'd have a long weekend again. Whereas two-thirds of the way through, you're right, you sort of you've gotten back over into work land and you're probably ready for another little, another little break. I'm so glad that you did the calendar maths for us because there is no way. I've got you with me, I can bring it, bring out all these lists through. Trust you, Phil. Trust you, Phil. I have no doubt that you have well and truly delved into that. And I'm so glad that um you've chosen to do that math for us. Laws, can I ask you? When we think about changing the date of Australia Day to make it the Australia Long Weekend, you know, some people would say that moving the date's just symbolic, and others say it's a, you know, a really meaningful first step forward in deeper truth-telling and justice. Does changing the date actually solve anything? Do you think? What does this mean?

Laura: 25:16

For someone who's spent many years advocating to free the Aboriginal flag from copyright, symbolism matters. It really does. It's it's really hard to tackle the bigger issues that this country has to reckon with with First Nations people. One of them being um, you know, locking up our kids so early, you know, amongst other issues that this country has to has to deal with. And we just have to look at how we're going backwards with our closing the gap statistics to see that. So this country has a lot of work to do. But this issue that we've been talking about for as long as I can remember is administrative. We don't even need to vote on it. Like the government can do this with a flick of the pen. Now, if we can't do this, if we can't listen to First Nations people's voices who've been marching the streets for, you know, oh, 80 odd years, exactly, then how can we make more uh meaningful change? You know, some people say we are putting so much effort, you know, so many people putting so much effort in around uh, you know, having these conversations around change the date. Uh, First Nations people, it's uh such a hard day. The amount of racism that we face on that day, how divisive this day is for a country, that can be resolved. You know, it may seem like it's symbolism, but there's also a lot of hurt and racism felt on this day because we simply choose, well, the government can change this, but they choose to celebrate Australia Day on the day the country was invaded or colonized.

Sarah: 27:06

If the government can't do this, then what right really do they have to tackle anything else as well? And when you talk to other non-Indigenous people and you share this Australia Long Weekend idea with them, what's the most common reaction that non-Indigenous people that you speak to have?

Phil: 27:23

Well, it it there are conservative people, quite what you know, rightly so. Um conservation means that you are conserving, should mean that anyway. Um so there will be people, oh Phil, look, don't want to hear. Um love Australia today, important. I love British institutions, etc., and the rule of law and all that. I don't want to lose it. To which I say, you're not gonna lose it. I believe in all those things too. But let's pick a time when we can all celebrate those things and our incredible 65,000 years of history and culture and language and Aboriginal law and knowledge of the land far beyond ownership of property, you know, uh, goes back to real connection with country.

Sarah: 28:20

We should be so much prouder of the incredible Aboriginal culture, Torres Islander culture, history stories that we have in this country rather than being weirdly awkward and ashamed and pushing it behind a curtain. And that's the opportunity I see in the Australia Long Weekend is the opportunity for us to grow up, I think, as a country, and to really think about what does it mean in 2025 to reflect, to celebrate, to be grateful for this place that that we call home. Phil, it sounds like you're telling me that when you speak to most non-Aboriginal people about this as well, is that they just want a long weekend in Jan and that that seems pretty, pretty reasonable. And so, Laws, when we think about what if we were to get an Australian long weekend up and it would to be successful in in shifting away from a national day of celebration on the 26th of January, in your view, what would that then free up Jan 26 to actually be? What could it look like?

Laura: 29:20

The first word that comes to mind is that will be a relief, you know, that we that we could stop um protesting on our day of mourning, that we could mark the 26th on our calendar as a day of mourning, and that we can reflect on the true history of this country and what we've lost. And so the Jan 26th is still gonna be a significant day. It's just not gonna be a day where we're competing with other people who are choosing to celebrate on that day too. So we get to take back Jan 26th, actually. Um so I'm looking forward to that. I'm looking forward to not starting the year to which I've experienced my whole life talking about Jan 26.

Phil: 30:02

Dreading it.

Laura: 30:03

Dreading it. Just like here it goes again. You know, it's I think I'm tired of it. I'm sick of talking about it, and I think lots of people would agree, like we're sick of it.

Phil: 30:12

Well, that's the end of the podcast. Done.

Laura: 30:14

We're done, we're over of it. I think we're all over it. Like we're all over it. Um, you know, this is a we talk about a small but significant shift. It will be a new thing for me, I think for lots of other First Nations people to actually have an Australia Day on a long weekend or Australia long weekend where it's not linked to protest. So um, what does celebrating this country look like for us? What are those? I'm looking forward to what other conversations I can have on this long weekend if it's not about, you know, talking about not celebrating colonization. What are those other conversations I think we should be focusing on during the long weekend that all Australians should be aware of as well, to move First Nations people forward? Like it's an opportunity to have new conversations and do things differently.

Sarah: 31:09

Um and it's I just wholeheartedly believe that um it's it's overdue. I really enjoy that reflection about new conversations about a national identity and how we we shift what that is and and upgrade it for what 2025 really looks like. And Phil, how has this work for you changed your perspective of celebrating, I guess, what our national identity is? What do you think it could be?

Phil: 31:37

So First Nations would be at the absolute beginning and center of the long weekend, Australia Long Weekend. And then what you'd be doing is combining culture, uh Aboriginal culture, culture from new Australians, uh British culture, etc., over the course of the weekend. Uh you'd have some people out there watching the cricket test match on the Sunday, maybe and Monday, or whatever, or the tennis, uh Wimbledon, uh not Wimbledon, but the tennis, Australian Open.

Sarah: 32:13

Australian Open, yes.

Phil: 32:16

Anyway, uh the Australian Open. You'd have people who just want to use those days as they do now to catch up with friends and family, other people who just want to sit by the seaside and have their emotional, their brain washed by the sea and and the sun and just relax for three days. The beauty of it would be that everybody could do their own thing or combine with others and ceremonies, cultural or whatever, knowing that everybody else is happy for that to take place. That is such a powerful force.

Sarah: 32:56

How does that sound to you?

Laura: 32:57

Uh, incredible. Um, all the activities that you could do on that day. Um three days. Three days. It's gonna take three days. Three days to all those chivals. But it makes me reflect on what we currently have, and that's a whole lot of division. If it feels like we have a collective of First Nations flags, and then we have the Australian flag over over over there. Australian Day celebrations are have happening over there, and you know, survival day events or invasion day events are happening over here. So we're very much divided. You're on one camp or the other. What if we're able to unite over three days where it wasn't one or the other that we're able to come together? And that sounds different. It's a different totally a different experience, but something I think um it sounds better than what we've got. Sounds like an improvement. It sounds like something I would want my kids and grandkids to be part of. Um, you know, it's doesn't feel safe on Jan 26 as it as it currently is. It's not safe. This feels like a safer a safer way forward. And to continue to reinvent what these three, you know, these three days look like, um, I think it's a real opportunity to craft it to what we want where First Nations feel part of it. Like it actually respects if we do it right, 65,000 years.

Sarah: 34:26

And there are so many opportunities in this idea, which I think is absolutely one of the main reasons why we thought it it had merit, as you say, Phil. Laws, if you could ask the government or employers or the media one thing about this idea or about the Nordate to Celebrate campaign, what would it be?

Laura: 34:43

What would I ask them? Uh probably it would be a simple question, why not? What's I would be hard pressed. Tell me why you think this isn't a better idea than what we currently have. And I would ask, how long? How much longer? And how can you support us? How are you using your privilege, your power, your platform to raise awareness of this? Because it's going to take community action, it's going to take even more community support. So the government cannot ignore it anymore. If they're not going to make this come to this decision themselves, it's pretty sound, reasonable, common sense solution. That's going to solve lots of problems for them, um, themselves, then we need more people. We need people power.

Sarah: 35:36

And we've seen people power, we've seen businesses get on board this campaign as well. Um, I couldn't agree more. It's time. It really is. Phil, for non other non-Indigenous people who are listening to our podcast today, what advice would you give to allies who want to support this movement, but they're not sure where to start?

Phil: 35:57

Well, I think um you've got to realize to make change, you can stand up, one person can make change. It's been shown. But it's really people combining uh in partnerships, like your in your work situation. I'm so blown away by that. It's by people coming together and feel that you've got the power to do something. And the if you go onto our website, for example, uh Australia Longweekend.com.au, there's a supporters page. And those supporters aren't supporting me or supporting James or supporting Australia Long Weekend Group or something. They're supporting an idea. This is an idea. And once you release an idea, if it has memory, the idea will never go away. You know, a campaign can go away. An idea can never go away. So what's been released is an idea. And that idea is now out there. It's not going to ever go away. It's now been in the public domain. You've done a blog about it. We've written articles, been in the papers, etc. So it's not going away. And I would ask people to support it, to spread the word, and to feel they have the power of action. But there are rules. The rules are you must be respectful, you must be accurate and honest in what you say, and you must treat people well.

Sarah: 37:30

Oh, Phil, I love these rules. They sound very normal. Vote one, Phil. Phil and Laura, to close us out, I've got one last question for us. Phil, I'm going to start with you. What's one thing that you would like our listeners to sit with after this conversation, in addition to your three rules for life, if you will?

Phil: 37:51

Well, if they feel this has merit and if they want to exhibit their best selves, then they've got to realize that if they believe in things like a fair go, this country's about a fair go, justice, etc. You must give justice to First Nations people. You can't celebrate on a day, frankly, of pain and hurt to others. I can't do it anymore. And so you've got to then move to a solution. And this is a very good solution. It's not just uh this is a kind of solution and we'll move off to something else. In my view, and I'm biased, uh I'm biased on it. My view, it is the solution to it, I have to say, because it's the best time of the year to celebrate. It's also the best time to reflect when you're with family and friends. And so I just implore everybody, including government and the media, and the whole citizens and business, get behind these campaigns. Let's change the date respectfully in dialogue, and let's move to the second last Monday in January.

Sarah: 39:12

Wells, what about you? What's one thing you'd like our listeners to sit with? Great clothes, Phil. We can tell you're embarrassed.

Laura: 39:22

Um, I think for First Nations people, this Jan 26th has always presented an issue and we've been protesting as a result. But now this is an issue for all Australians. This is an issue for everyone because, like I said earlier, people aren't comfortable celebrating on this date. And because of that, um, I feel like we can actually make change because it's impacting on all Australians. You know, we look at, you know, we've got a shop in Brunswick and we have lots of people come in who are doing their citizenship on that day. And they're coming in to buy an always was, always will be outfit, wishing that their citizenship ceremony. Wasn't on Jan 26 too. And it's unfortunate, but it's often until an issue impacts on everyone, not just First Nations people, that Australians actually stand up and say, Oh, I'm going to do something about this as well. And I certainly think that this Jan 26 Australia Day divisive date is impacting on all of us. And for that reason, I think we are going to get that support and we're eventually going to get change. I'd I'm not hopeless about this. I'm hopeful. And this idea that we've discussed today is the best idea to point that I've that I've heard and that we've discussed. So I guess I want to leave people with hope. And I want to leave people with agency to, you know, educate themselves. Like Phil's a great example of someone who's who's done that. And to float these ideas and have them with those loved ones around you. Absolutely.

Sarah: 41:02

Phil, I really enjoyed your point about an idea never goes away. I love that. And there is hope. Things can be better. This country deserves better. First nations community deserve better. And we deserve to write a better story for our future together. And I think when we think about the amount of momentum that real change really does take, and as you said, Laws, it affects all people from all walks of life now. This conversation today is a really good example of that of Phil being in your early 80s. Yes. Don't correct me now.

Speaker 1: 41:33

It's moving away from my early 80s as the minutes go by.

Sarah: 41:37

Yes, Phil. And uh and and Laws, you know, as a as a good intramural woman and a community leader in the advocacy work that you've done. When we're coming together today to have this conversation, I think it really does speak to the fact that we have reached a really, really strong point in this conversation and it has to change. So thank you both so much for being with us today and to our listeners. Thank you for joining us. Thank you, Phil, for flying down from Sydney. So together, I think let's stay open and stay curious and keep having those conversations, keep floating those ideas, and let's keep working together towards something better than where we are now. We're looking for progress over perfection because this is how change begins. So we've linked the change.org petition in the show notes for you, along with a bunch of other resources and links to learn more about how to get involved. So until next time, Spin Community Conversations by Cleveland the Gaps. We'll see you soon.