The Power of Blak Retail

More Than a Tee: The Truth About Blak Retail

What does it really mean to build a space that centres Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people?

In this emotional episode of Community Conversations by Clothing The Gaps, we sit down with Ebony, the retail manager who helped shape one of the most impactful Blak retail spaces in Australia.

After six years of holding space, mentoring community, and guiding thousands of conversations, Ebony reflects on:

• What a “safe Blak space” actually looks and feels like
• The meaning behind Mob-only and ally-friendly clothing
• Why political fashion is more than just what you wear
• The emotional weight of working in a purpose-driven business
• The reality of allyship in action, not just intention
• How fashion can spark real conversations and change
• What happened inside the store after the Voice referendum
• Why visibility and representation truly matter

This is not just retail.

It's a community.
It’s identity.
It’s activism in action.

Chapters

00:00 “There Aren’t Enough Spaces for Mob to Be Themselves”
00:44 Welcome & Ebony’s Final Week Reflection
02:33 Can I Wear That? Understanding Ally vs Mob
04:08 Why Mob-Only Pieces Matter
06:35 Allyship Is Just the Starting Point
08:42 Matching People to Conversations They’re Ready For
10:46 What a Safe Blak Space Feels Like
12:08 A Store That Centres First Nations People
15:52 Identity, Pride & Representation in Retail
18:12 Why the Mob Discount Matters
22:30 The Emotional Weight Behind the Counter
25:06 The Reality After the Voice Referendum
27:20 Holding Space for Community Grief
30:07 Why This Store Is More Than Retail
33:47 What Is Political Fashion?
36:49 Wearing Your Values & Building Trust
37:43 The Impact of the Free the Flag Movement
41:47 Why Visibility Matters All Year Round
42:48 Ebony’s Reflection After 6 Years

Transcript

speaker-0 (00:00.13)

think there's not enough spaces in the world where Mob can come in and just be their full selves and shop up and find something about their culture that they can be really proud of.

speaker-1 (00:09.934)

It is an educational hub. It's a meeting point. It's a destination place. It is more than just a retail space. It's a space that genuinely centres Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in an industry that almost never does.

speaker-0 (00:22.702)

Political fashion to me is such a powerful tool of being able to express yourself to the world and tell people and community where you're at without having to open your mouth.

speaker-1 (00:33.176)

They're not just slogans, they're calls to actions and it is work for us.

speaker-1 (00:44.216)

Welcome to Community Conversations. I'm your host, Sarah Sherry, and we're recording today on unceded sovereign Wurundjeri country. Today's conversation is really special and to be honest, a little bit emotional. Think we're all going to be doing well if we don't get through without bursting into tears, actually. It's Ebony's last week with us and after six years in our retail space, Ebb’s moving on to some new adventures and we're really excited for her.

Six years of conversations at the counter, six years of holding space and six years of building something that we refer to at Clothing The Gaps as being our safe Blak retail space. So today I'm joined by Laura Thompson. Laura, as most of you would know, is the co-founder and CEO of Clothing the Gaps. You're a proud Gunditjmara woman. And Ebony Popple, our current retail manager at Clothing the Gaps for a few more days, who's a Bundjalung Woman.

And has been one of the people most responsible for shaping what our retail space actually feels like. So this episode really isn't about clothing. It's about what it means to build a space that genuinely centers Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in an industry that almost never does. We've shaped this episode around four key takeaways about Blak retail. The things that we want you to walk away actually understanding. So let's get into it. 

With four key takeaways, our first one is can I wear that?

And it's a system that we built to answer a question that we got so much. Our DMs were filled with it. And for me as a non-Aboriginal person, I can really understand where this question comes from. Comes from a place of not wanting to, wanting to get it right, be supportive. But the question really went like, I'm a non-Aboriginal person and I'm really supportive, but I just, I just want to know whether or not I can wear the things. And in the store, Ebb, that's one of the questions that I would imagine that you get at the counter and around on the shop floor so much. How do you answer that question?

speaker-0 (02:33.184)

Yeah, absolutely. think first and foremost, like you said, it's a question we get all the time. just acknowledging that it's a safe space for people to ask those questions. Can I wear that? 

So I guess in store and online, Clothing The Gaps, we have a tagging system, which we're really proud about. Customers can come in and look out for the Ally friendly or Mob only logos. And that really helps steer and navigate their purchases to make sure it's appropriate for them and what they're wearing.

Yeah, they're able to speak on the garment they're maybe purchasing.

speaker-1 (03:06.572)

Yeah, absolutely. Laws, when we made that tagging system, did you think it would make the difference that it actually make? Like what happened when we did that? 

Speaker-2:People thanked us. They were like, thank you for allowing me to shop with confidence. I want to wear my values and now I can feel like I can do that respectfully. It was a real game changer in our business. Actually, we saw an increase in sales and I didn't realize actually how much it was needed.

that how many people were actually wrestling with that decision. Can I wear that? You know, people were just actually waiting for permission. For us come in the form of an Ally friendly and Mob only tag or symbol that allowed them to show their support for First Nations people. And I guess that's speaking a lot to like the non-Indigenous experience of walking into the store as well. 

Speaker-1: What about for Mob? What do you think having a Mob only range means?

for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. you're wearing one of the Mob Only tees today, Ebb, a Sovereign tee. Tell us about the Mob Only racking store and those conversations.

speaker-0 (04:08.94)

Yeah, absolutely. I feel so proud that I've been able to work in a space that has a Mob-only collection. It's something that's really spotlighted in the space. I know for myself as an Aboriginal woman, I definitely feel really seen and heard in the world when I can go in and shop and wear something really proud that celebrates who I am as an Aboriginal woman. So like you said, says I've got the Sovereign T on today, but from our Mob-only collection and a piece that we have spotlighted in the retail space is our Shades of Deadly Range and it's one of my favorite pieces because this particular campaign was one of the first Mob only pieces that Clothing the Gaps had released. And I'm really happy that this particular campaign talks about challenging stereotypes and celebrating identity. So yeah, I think for myself as an Aboriginal woman to have a particular section in store where I can shop up and, you know. Wear something to be proud of who I am. I think that's really important and special.

speaker-1 (05:09.646)

I think sometimes it's okay to have some ranges or products that are just for Mob. And I think as we see an increase of Indigenous fashion that's accessible and being worn, which is what we want by the whole of community, we're literally uniting people through fashion and a cause, know, being, seeing First Nations people in a Mob-only collection is identified that that's Mob because, you know, for example, our sovereign range, if you're not a First Nations person to this country, it wouldn’t make sense if you're wearing that sovereignty, right? 

So it's really, it's a nice identifier, especially as we see an increase of people wearing Indigenous fashion. Back in the day, if you saw someone wearing a Mob tee, you would assume that they were Mob. This day and age, I don't think you can. 

It's a really good point of a lot has changed in the accessibility to First Nations design and fashion and protest tees as well, I would say.

you're so right, before you really had to either work in a space or be Mob to get that tee, whereas it's completely different now. I think it's a really good step in unlearning access and yeah, and thinking about what allyship in action looks like. When we do talk about the ally friendly range, do want to tell us a little bit more about like what's on the tag about talking about wearing the tees, just the first step?

speaker-0 (06:35.69)

Yeah, absolutely. I think for a lot of the pieces at Clothing The Gaps, especially for first time shoppers, you know, it's a great starting point for customers to come in and engage and proudly wear a piece that celebrates Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture. But it is really a starting point for allyship as well. So when you're in the space, ensuring that customers are engaging and, you know, trying on a piece that they feel well equipped and comfortable enough to...

talk about out in community and out in the world. I think that's really important.

speaker-1 (07:08.366)

Essentially, like when you wear a Clothing The Gaps Tee you're a walking billboard and we set you out into the world to have conversations with those people around you. Um, and for us at Clothing The Gaps, I feel like we, we dress all the cool kids. 

No, we dress a lot of people who have more progressive mindset and that are supportive of first nations, people and causes. Um, but when you wear that tee it really, you are signposting, what you value, and it does open you up for conversations and some of those that are not so easy. 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, Ebb, you and the retail team do a really great job of finding out a little bit more about the person. It's almost a little bit like a matchmaking scenario where you have to understand where they work, what do they do, what kind of conversations have they been involved in before? Do you own any other Aboriginal brands? And then you do this beautiful process where you guide them perhaps to a range or a selection of t-shirts that are not just the right design cut colour shape for them as a person, as a wearer, but about what conversations they're ready, willing and able and a right for them to have. 

You know, if they've just sort of started thinking about what this looks like for them, you know, a Treaty tee may not be the tee for them. Maybe it's the Blak love tee with some cute little love hearts and then they can, you know, step their way up. Or maybe it's just a pin or a cup or something. Yeah, i think you do a really, really great job at that because there's a spectrum of conversations, I guess, isn't there?

speaker-0 (08:42.158)

Absolutely. think one of the first things that myself and I know that the team in the retail space do, we always are really curious. It's like, hey, have you shopped with us before? Have you been here? You know, like, how can we help you today, like navigate the space? Is there something in particular you’re looking for? Is there a design that you're really drawn to? And I think being along the journey with that customer while they're in the space is so important to understand where they're at with activism.

you know, what conversations they're well and equipped to have, all of those things. I think we get to learn that in the retail space, which is really exciting.

speaker-1 (09:19.554)

What are the customers, well, our community care about, you know, if they're coming in and it's in the lead up to Jan 26, we'll often talk about an Not a Date to Celebrate campaign and say, you know, why don't you wear this tee on Jan 26? You know, I think a lot of that political messaging and our designs come from campaigns or situations or causes that we care about. And if we can find out what our community cares about as well, we can sell them, you know, like Sares said, match them with the right tee. 

Yeah, for the conversation that they're ready to have, we'll often talk about that there's many onramps onto the highway of social change and finding the right piece for the right person in that moment of time is so important. And I think that's probably that second part to that question of can I wear that? And then what am I ready for? What conversations are people ready to have, especially for non-Aboriginal people? All right.

Takeaway number two, are we ready? 

Our second takeaway, and we're reflecting about the million one things that we could have talked about today, was what a safe Blak space actually looks and feels like. 

Thinking about it beyond this idea, but an experience that's lived and feels real and is real. If you were explaining what the Clothing The Gaps retail space, being a safe Blak space feels like to somebody, how would you describe it?

Hmm.

speaker-0 (10:46.392)

That's such a great question. I think for me, the Clothing The Gaps retail space is a connection place. I would honestly just call it almost like a cultural hub. It's a destination point for so many people, whether they're Indigenous or non-Indigenous. When they come to Naarm, they want to stop in and visit Clothing The Gaps. But I think it's a place of connection for a lot of people. And I think it's really lovely to have a physical store where people can come in, they can connect, they can get a feel of the products.

They can try things on, but most importantly, they can hold space and conversation with each other. And also they can learn from each other about, you know, what brought them in, what they're driven to do, what they're passionate about. I know for a lot of community members here in the Victorian Aboriginal community, it's a space where people come in and, you know, able to up with their family. It's a space where people can show up as who they are and be proud of that. think.

there's not enough spaces in the world where Mob can come in and just be their full selves and shop up and find something about their culture that they can be really proud about to wear. And I think those spaces are so important. So I'm really glad that the Clothing the Gaps physical store has that sense of belonging for people.

speaker-1 (12:08.394)

How would you describe it? 

I would describe it as a place that centers Mob first and foremost, a space that was created for Mob. You Mob's at the heart of the retail store and it's a home we've created for Mob and other people are invited, know, non-Indigenous people are invited to come in. You know, we have a massive neon sign as you walk in that says Wominjeka, a Woi Wurrung word.

that means come with purpose and intentionally it's glowing in the building as a reminder that for non-Indigenous people, you're welcome here, but also come with the right intentions. And to be fair, the shop is red, Blak and yellow from the street. Most people know, you can see very clearly. It's a really proud spot. It takes up space in Brunswick.

There's not very many shops that you can sort of, if you're going past in the tram and you spot Clothing The Gaps, you know what it stands for, right? There's always was, always will be, red, Black and yellow everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we've got the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flag, the pride flag, Wominjeka is glowing, the buildings red, Blak and yellow, I support treaty. Like there's so many things that says this is a space that supports First Nations people.

speaker-0 (13:15.904)

Flags hanging down.

speaker-1 (13:33.644)

And as shoppers, as First Nation people who shop, we don't go into many other retail spaces where we feel like, hey, this is all about me. I can show up proud as a Blakfella here. some of those stereotypes around, unfortunately, negative stereotypes about First Nations people in retail stores, that's not a thing at Clothing The Gaps. We celebrate First Nations people.

Yeah, absolutely. I, the joy on your face and for anyone who's listening from the audio version of this won't be able to see that. But yeah, I think that's so important of thinking about that it is first and foremost made for First Nations people by First Nations people. And then everybody else is welcome if you come with the right intention. Flipping that narrative of what other you know, mainstream retail spaces often look like is that it's, it's for everybody else first. And then if, if there's a great retail manager in there, then maybe it might feel a bit safer, but that's really not the case everywhere. 

you might get a little acknowledgement plaque, which is better than nothing. As you come in, actually makes a big difference. fact, you that, you know, visual representation of things you can do in the shop to make it feel safer. And one of them is an acknowledgement plaque. know.

speaker-1 (14:59.118)

We've got a giant one of those. It's about putting flags up. And one of the most, I think, important things we done earlier on was we always put First Nations people on our retail floor. That was really important to us that to create a safe Blak space, there's lots of things you can do to, you know, decorate as such. But what we know creates the most difference is by having other First Nations people in those spaces to greet, serve you and connect with. 

And Ebbs trained, I think, 27 people, Indigenous young people along the way. And then I think, you know, I think maybe in the first year we decided to also put their Mob name on their name tag. What does that feel like, Ebb, in the store when you've got your Mob name on your tag?

speaker-0 (15:52.94)

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's so special. It's so unique. I've never seen it anywhere else. I think, I know for myself, like when I come to work and I'm able to put my name tag on, but it also has Bundjalung, you know, like that's who I am as, you know, a strong Aboriginal woman, you know, that's part of my identity. I think, like you said, Laura, having Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander staff members is so important, but also for those staff members to be proud of who they are and their full self at work is so great. It's lovely to be celebrated at work because I don't think all retail spaces are like that, unfortunately.

speaker-1 (16:33.87)

And then when you have other Mob coming to the store, they're like, are you Bundjalung? I'm Bundjalung, or do you know so and so? It's just such an easy way to build connection straight up.

speaker-0 (16:45.218)

I think from all aspects, whether it's the staff members engaging with customers, you said before Laws, who is better to tell those stories of the pieces than Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people themselves? But even from a customer lens too, whether people are coming in with their whole family, people are coming into state, we've had Elders in the space so much in the past, there's always space for people to come in and spend time and shop up.

speaker-1 (17:11.372)

We've got couches, free colouring in, toys, magazines. Like the whole shop is filled with other educational pieces, including QR codes, an iPad that's always got a campaign that we're featuring and highlighting an opportunity to sign a petition in the space. It's not just a shopping experience. It is an educational hub. And like Ebb said, it's a meeting point. It's a destination place. If I wanted to chat to you a little bit about what-

What those conversations at the counter look like when you've been able to guide somebody through the process, you've worked out through the conversations that you've had with them around the tagging system, more often than not before they get to the counter, whether or not they're Mob or whether they're a non-Indigenous person buying an ally friendly piece. 

I want to chat a little bit about the pricing structure that we have, including the gaps and how we've built this in for a really long time now of our Mob discount.

Why do you think a Mob discount is important and what does that feel like at the counter?

speaker-0 (18:12.492)

Yeah, absolutely. Mob discount is so important. And I think at Clothing The Gaps as a Blak business, it's something to be really, really proud of. It's great. I love that, you know, no matter who comes in and shops up, every single person that checks out at Clothing the Gaps, we ask that question. Are you Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander, we offer a Mob discount here. And I think that's something to be really proud of. You know, when we've done the training with the staff over the years, I think

It can feel like a daunting question, but also it's something, you know, to be really proud of. And I'm glad that as an Aboriginal business, we offer that at Clothing The Gaps as well. I think it really shows that we center community.

speaker-1 (18:56.142)

Why do you think, what do you think that experience is for Mob when they get to the counter and they get asked that, what happens then when you ask somebody if the Mob discounts for them?

speaker-0 (19:08.504)

Yeah, I feel like we've heard all different things over the years. We've heard lots of different things. I think, firstly, like a lot of people, especially if they are Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander, they're really grateful. They're like, wow, you offer a Mob discount. That's so deadly. You know, there's also been times before where some Mob were like, that's great. You offer that, but I'm happy to pay full price. Thanks for the offer. And then for, guess, any of our non-Indigenous customers as well.

It really, I guess, normalizes those types of conversations at checkout. It's something we will ask every single customer in store, no matter where they come from, what they look like, we'll ask everybody. And yeah, I guess for maybe non-Indigenous people, the best way for them to reply in that moment I've found is, no, the discount's not for me, but thanks for asking.

speaker-1 (20:03.938)

Yeah.

speaker-0 (20:04.834)

Yeah, people have responded in lots of different ways, but I think for Mob it's something that they're really excited about. I know I am.

speaker-1 (20:10.734)

Absolutely. What's the Mob discount? I feel like I need to say it. It's 15 % off. Like it's not a huge amount, but it is, I guess. It's an acknowledgement really. It's a way to make, to let them know that, you know, the stories and the campaigns we're talking about impacts on them personally and as a community. Absolutely. And, you know, we spent a really long time trying to work out how we implemented it and like we

It was so funny. took us, it took us a while to like, we, always kind of had it and kind of happened really informally at the counter. And then we, we finally worked out Shopify enough to make it happen. Hey, we tag for those e-commerce nerds out there. We tag our customers as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander. We've worked in different ways to communicate, with our community differently, how we prioritize them, new releases, all those things. So I'm really proud of the fact that we've been asking that question for so long now that, you know, we have our own mailing list of First Nations people that we can continue to centre through our communications, but also through, you know, a discount on all our products. And we'll do fun things like Mob might get cheeky access to sales first, new pieces, all those sorts of things, which is, it is really important. And the way that we often talk about it is that, you know, some things really are just for Mob and that's.

how it should be, especially within an Aboriginal business. Which brings me to takeaway number three, because quite clearly, if you haven't worked out already, as you've been listening throughout other two takeaways, that it is more than just retail. But that also comes with the invisible labour behind the counter. The emotional weight that, you know, the job description, we try and cover it, but it never really can, I think, and it's this...the impact of the colonial load, I think, within the store is really important to talk about here. What do you think people and perhaps most, more than likely non-Indigenous people don't understand about what operating a safe Blak retail space looks like as well? What's the gap in, I guess, expectation versus reality for some people there?

speaker-0 (22:30.146)

think we touched on it a little bit before when we spoke about, know, it's so much more than a tee. And I think when people go into retail spaces, you know, they're shopping up and they can buy some, you new shorts or a new hat or something like that. But at Clothing the Gaps as a proud Aboriginal business, it's so much more than a tee. It's so much more than that. And I think that's because the particular campaigns or you know, the messages or the images attached to that particular piece has such a weight and a gravity to it and so much power in that. So absolutely, there is like a different kind of weight to Blak business rather than, and Blak retail rather than mainstream retail, I will say. I've worked in both. It feels personal and it's not just a tee. There's so much more. It's what's happening in our communities. It's what's happening.

It's what's happened for years, you know, it's what people have protested about. It's lots of different things. And yes, we would get to have that like transaction point with the customer, but they're also walking out and have that responsibility to, I guess, stand with First Nations people and keep showing up.

speaker-1 (23:43.886)

You know, I think for our retail staff, if you compare it to, you know, a job at Kmart, it's not just a transaction. You know, one of our catchphrases is wear your values and those values and those campaigns relate deeply to the staff members themselves. What is happening in the world directly impacts every day on what the shop looks and feels like.

And you just wouldn't get that in any other retail space. And it talks to the staff that turn up because they don't just treat this like a job. know, they work at Clothing The Gaps because they care about First Nations justice and they can see the work the brand's doing in contributing to that and progressing that. So they put themselves in these positions where they carry this emotional toll that goes beyond.

a transaction at the counter. Absolutely. When we think back to different moments in time that really highlight this experience that you're both talking about, my brain goes straight to the day of and the day after the referendum, the voice referendum. Do you want to talk a little bit about what that and felt like in the shop, Ebb? Because that's a bit of a wild time.

speaker-0 (25:06.03)

Absolutely. really was. think, yeah, like when I think back and reflect on that particular time, you know, the 15th of October, and it's like the day after what that looked like for not only our community at work that we had, but for the wider Aboriginal community. I know from like the shop lens as well, like

We didn't know that the referendum necessarily was happening that year. And then all of a sudden it was something we advocated for, you know, all year, pretty much. was from January right until October, until that moment when the rest of the country told us no. after that, the aftermath of that, was like after a whole team really striving, you know, to want to see that change and it to be pushed aside.

It was, yeah, tricky. was lots of different emotions to navigate. And I think for our whole team, especially working in a front of house capacity as well, like having to hold so much space for community members and, you know, a lot of those community members that have, that came in had been shopping with us for years and was just saying things like, I'm so sorry. But like you said, says like, if you've had sorry for the 15th time that day, it's like, how do you...

Where do you put that? So what we actually ended up doing to really care and look after the team's wellbeing at that time, after the referendum, was we ended up turning our spotlight campaign kind of iPad into a bit of a, like, a spot for customers to really channel that energy. And we called it the good, bad and the ugly. And that was.

Somewhere where if customers were coming in, it was just becoming a bit too overwhelming maybe for the team that we were able to kind of say, hey, there's this spot that we've created and you can share your reflections here of how you feel about the referendum that we can come back and look over when we've got the capacity. I think, yeah, like you said, Laura, it's so much more than, it just feels so personal for the team. And when those things happen, it's yeah, I guess tricky.

speaker-1 (27:20.718)

Hundreds of people contributed to the Good the Bad and the Ugly referendum, you know, guess, survey or that we created. And it took 12 months for us to reread that on the end of, you know, in the lead up to the anniversary. thought, okay, I'm finally, we're ready to, you know, hear what, you know, people have shared with us. It was a traumatic experience. It was a racist experience. The amount of trolling and awful derogatory comments we received online that were filtering and moderating in the back end. To be fair, the shop space stayed a safe Blak space for staff. It was just the emotional toll. And I don't think our customers and community that come in realize know, it's just one story for them. They don't understand that, you know, what that looks and feels like for staff over and over again. it can feel, you know, almost like you're wanting to be supportive and share how much you are caring and you are, you know, as a non-Aboriginal person, I just want to let you know that I back you and I support you and I can see, I can't understand as a non-Aboriginal person, but I can see that that's...

It's exhausting to continue to hear time and time again of just feeling like you end up patting somebody on the back and going off to the iPad. think one of the things that, you know, that we've prioritized in trying to keep our staff safe, going back to remembering in a couple of takeaways ago, so all of our retail team of First Nations, well, they're often young as well, how we keep them safe and how we sustain the energy in that space is really important. And thinking about different tools and tactics that we've used over the last six years of having the shop, that we've also had to learn how to deal with better as well, has been really important. And I think the day after the referendum, when we put the good, the bad, the ugly, you can either scan the QR code and sit in the couches in the shop and type your story out or you could do it at the iPad. It was really...

speaker-1 (29:43.35)

It was incredible. Like there were people who had just come in cause they, they didn't know where else to go. They didn't really know what to do. They were feeling and for non-Aboriginal people and for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are feeling a bit lost, just wondered about the whole situation and to think that Clothing The Gaps was the place that they felt drawn to speaks volumes that it is more than just a retail space.

speaker-0 (30:07.342)

Also, sorry Laws, I was just going to say, just touching on aswell, I know after the referendum, we also, as a business, we paused for a sec and we all came together. We had that day where all of us Mob could kind of debrief and yarn together. And I think that was really important that in shows and speaks, that community care that happens, you wouldn't see that in another retailer space. You'd get up on Monday, you put your uniform on and you'd go to work.

we kind of got that opportunity to really stop and yeah, debrief.

speaker-1 (30:39.438)

And I think about how we survived this awful time being at the forefront of this in the shop was, one, we had incredible communities of supporters, but two, we had each other having a whole team of First Nations people there. We weren't alone in that. And I was really grateful in the aftermath of the referendum that I was surrounded by Mob.

And I thought about those companies and businesses where there was just only one Indigenous person in there and how that would have felt. We all had each other. And I think the fact that we have a team of First Nations people in retail, that is our superpower in how we're able to continue to show up. Because all day long, we're debriefing with each other about every experience.

speaker-0 (31:35.286)

I guess as well and over some of our learnings over the years, found how great signage is, those QR codes we've got all throughout the space where people can engage with all the blogs, all of the education resources, they can sign the petition, all of those things. But it also is a really good backstop for our team to channel that energy and say, check out this QR code. You can learn more about what we do here.

that little spot for the team if they ever need to.

speaker-1 (32:05.632)

A really nice buffer. have lots of, you know, young staff who were, you know, still at high school and having those QR codes in, you know, strategic spots allows them to not feel like they have to have all the answers all the time. That's it. Putting some boundaries around what our retail team will be able to help you with. And some things that you might need to go and find out for yourself essentially is once you get past the

Welcome to our safe like space. There's no room for racism. And by the way, this is what the team can help you with. And this is what's on you essentially, because, the team are really awesome at helping you find a different size for you. But in terms of what you should include in your school curriculum, maybe try somewhere else. I have to laugh about it because what retail shop do you go into anywhere with these expectations to get educated by staff? Nobody walks into Meyer and says,

speaker-0 (33:01.944)

Yeah.

speaker-1 (33:05.134)

Can you tell me about the first person to own this building? No one knows the answer to that question. The questions that the retail team honestly get asked, we could spend a whole nother episode talking about it. So let's move on to takeaway number four. And this, was thinking about these laws when you were talking about the day after the referendum as well and what people chose to wear because takeaway number four is, it is more than just retail. you've said a lot, it's, we are addressing the resistance.

It is political fashion and there is a responsibility that comes with wearing your values and being political. So I guess when we talk about political fashion at Clothing the Gaps, what does that mean to you?

speaker-0 (33:47.284)

Yeah, I think first and foremost, it lets people know where I stand without even having to open my mouth. And I think we've just been chatting about, there's been a few times over the years where, you know, maybe you need to wake up and you need to put on your not a date to celebrate tee. Or I know that's what I wore the day after the referendum, because I was like, I don't want to talk to anyone about this, but this tee is telling me exactly, telling everyone exactly where I'm at.

So yeah, political fashion to me is such a powerful tool of being able to express yourself to the world and tell people and community where you're at without having to open your mouth.

speaker-1 (34:25.666)

You know, it was political fashion. was merged with a message is why we started Clothing the Gaps. You know, it was never an intention, but the Free the Flag tee was the moment where we decided that we wanted to continue to create political fashion, tees that created conversations, that created action, and that led to outcome. You know, when we led, spearheaded this Free the Flag campaign, supported by our community,

and were able to see the flag being freed. That was such an important moment for all the team and for the brand. And they're not just slogans, they're call to actions and it's worked for us. Yeah, and I guess the action piece I think for me is the really, key word in that as well is that it's not just putting on the tee and going about your day and that's enough. Is that it's seeing somebody make eye contact at your t-shirt.

and taking that opportunity to have that conversation rather than shying away from that moment to share what your t-shirt is actually about. Like I often use the analogy of I have the same values, principles and ideas about the world, whether I'm wearing a political fashion t-shirt or whether I'm not. It's just that the political fashion tee makes that very, very clear with Ebbb as you said, without having to even talk about what I want the world.

to look and feel like in the conversations that I'm willing to have or to not have as well. And it changes the way that landscapes feel. Hey, Laws, like how do you feel when you're walking down the street? Let's just say, you know, we're in Collingwood. If you saw somebody walking down the street wearing, you know, around Jan 26, wearing a not a date to celebrate tee, like how does it make you feel as an Aboriginal person? Definitely safer. It changes the way the world looks and feels. certainly in spaces where there's more people wearing

or Blak fashion in general, and you see those messages, they feel like people around you care and you feel supported in that. Reflecting on the day post-referendum, I went to a cafe and I remember clearly I saw someone in the cafe wearing, continuing to wear their Yes Tee, and it just made all the difference because the day after the referendum, I didn't know who voted no or not.

speaker-1 (36:49.292)

So, you know, wearing your values post-referendum was a way to create trust between me and society. And I think a lot of people felt like that, like the majority of people voted no. So how do we continue to talk to the people that said or voted yes and who can we trust now? So certainly your clothes are able to signal your values, but also who you can trust.

speaker-0 (37:16.78)

that visibility piece, I guess, where, yeah, you're out in the world and you see someone wearing a different piece from another Aboriginal business and like, you're my person, I'm going to go and talk to you.

speaker-1 (37:27.106)

Yeah, absolutely. When it was the day that the 25th of January when the Aboriginal flag copyright was announced to have been bought. When you woke up in the morning and saw that on social media, what did you think?

speaker-0 (37:43.97)

Yeah. I feel like that is honestly a moment that has stuck with me forever. I think I had been working at Clothing in the Gap for maybe like a year and a half just. And at the time when I first started, the biggest spotlight campaign we were selling was Free the Flag. So I remember waking up and yeah, my first like look at social media for the day was Aboriginal flag is free from its copyright. And I just remember like trying to put the puzzle pieces together to being like,

my God, like the power of political fashion is real. And that really kind of like ignited the fire in my belly for me. and yeah, just seeing how, I guess, something that you can really advocate for, for so long, and then for things to be changed, it was, yeah, a moment that stuck with me forever. I still have my free the flag tee and try to wear it when I can. But I think, yeah, that was a really huge moment for a lot of Mob, I think.

speaker-1 (38:42.638)

Absolutely. And I think Laura's like, you're so right. Like think the Free the Flag campaign was probably a really big switch for us at Clothing the Gaps of understanding not just the power of fashion, but the power of the role of business within that as well. And that it was the fact that we were a business with independence and agility and the ability to run that campaign or to lead that campaign in the way that you did that made that difference as well.

speaker-0 (39:08.736)

Even for community too, like even from a, I guess, a customer's lens too, you know, all those people that bought the free, the flag tea or the hat. and for that to be changed, it's like, wow, like the, it really does make a difference, you know, standing in solidarity and all of those things.

speaker-1 (39:26.144)

I think the more different people from different postcodes and different cultures that we get to dress, the better. That's what really excites me is like going to somewhere I didn't expect, like out of this Northern suburbs bubble that we exist in at Clothing the Gaps, where it feels like Clothing the Gaps is uniform. But you go to Queensland, for example, and you see Clothing the Gaps. That's so exciting because you have, we have these champions, legends, people who are wearing the values in spaces where it's

not always safe where the people around them don't think the same way. And they're influencing their circle of people. So the more people that were able to pinpoint in all over the country and get them to wear their values, the more conversations we're having. And I think, you know, it's a really important reflection actually to bring up in that wearing your t-shirt where it's expected versus where it's, it's actually unsafe.

And it's a very different experience. I often get really excited about when we get a new wholesaler as well in a space that isn't traditionally perhaps like a progressive, you we can see lots of different information about different parts of the country from, you know, voting records and seeing stockists take up, you know, space on their shelves in spots where it's probably really risky in their community. Like I think that's so brave, just as

individual people who, you know, go to the supermarket, go to their little local IGA in a get up, stand up, show up t-shirt. Like it's kind of terrifying. also like, you know, I think you're touching on that as well, says like certain days there's expectations that you might want to wear your values like NAIDOC week, Harmony Day, Reconciliation Week, Jan 26, you know, you'd know them well. They're our busiest times in retail, right?

Um, and the point that we want to make, and we say it all the time at Clothing the Gaps is to wear your values all year round. And I think having those conversations and wearing those clothes when people don't expect it is, um, really important to the survival of our business. But also the future of this country is that, you know, uh, First Nations issues aren't

speaker-1 (41:47.642)

shouldn't be dealt with just in certain weeks of the year, it's ongoing and they require ongoing conversations. absolutely. What you wear on Tuesday is just as important as what you wear on the first day of NAIDOC. And the opportunity to be active across all of those different times of the year is really, really important.

speaker-0 (42:04.962)

For sure. I think, guess, just touching on that too, Laws, I know we've spoken about it before, but, you know, for maybe some of our customers, you know, if they're not indigenous, they have that opportunity at the end of their day to, you know, take off their hat or all of those things. Whereas like for a lot of Blakfellas, you know, we're Blak all year round. We don't really have that privilege. yeah, visibility matters and it definitely creates a safer community.

speaker-1 (42:32.142)

That's a really good point, Ebb, we're coming to the end of our chat together and I wanted to ask you, six years is a really long time, what's one moment or one feeling that you'll carry with you when you leave us at Cloth in the Gaps?

speaker-0 (42:48.236)

goodness. There's so many things that come to mind, but I think for me in this moment as a proud Bundjalung woman,  I grew up on country. haven't always lived here in Naarm. So for six years to be welcomed and really held by the Victorian Aboriginal community has been so beautiful and something that will really stick with me forever. And I think having those connections and the network, yeah, is...

something that will really continue that fire in my belly as I step into the new chapter. More specifically, I would say working alongside other Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander young people and being part of their journey and mentoring them. think that's been a huge highlight of my career and my time at CTG. yeah, it's something that I'm definitely going to miss about this special little pocket.

speaker-1 (43:43.776)

Ebb, we could also do like a whole other podcast episode on the incredible like Google feedback that we get about Ebony. Ebony at the store was so lovely. Ebony helped me so much. I just wanted to say a big thanks to Ebb. Like I think the way that you have created a really beautiful space within the stories is absolutely second to none and you should be really proud of that. And you know, it's been really lovely since you let us know and let the team know that you were.

Moving on to a new adventure, the reflections that have been coming from the team over the last little bit has been incredible as well. So I know that everybody's going to miss you, myself included. To everyone that's listening, that's ever walked in and being made to feel right at home by Ebb, from all of us, this is a massive thank you. Yeah.

Everything that we've mentioned today will be in the show notes. From Laws and I, a very big thank you and thanks for sharing all the things that you've learnt with us about creating a safe Blak space. 

See you next time.